DIAGRAMS

Has Microsoft gone totally mad? I can't even start to think about reasons
for totally removing Database Diagrams and Query diagrams from the Data
tools.
How are we supposed to design a database with 70 tables and 100
relationships now? Are we supposed to just type the relationships in one by
one or using the UI they call 'Table Designer'?
2000 to 2005... in 5 years, instead of optimizing one of the best features
in the client tools you just came up with the idea of totally removing it. I
hope this isnt contagious and doesn't spread inside Microsoft or we may well
find ourselves with no drag&drop in Longhorn...Hi
As a diagramming tool, the one provided with SQL Server is pretty poor. I
would not be sad at such a decission as third party tools and even Visio
have always done the job alot better. After recent judgements against MS,
bundling even a cut down Visio with SQL Server would probably be deemed
anti-competitive, so it seems they are damned whatever they do!
John
"Juan Ignacio Gelos" <msnews@.juanignaciogelos.com> wrote in message
news:%23xLMWnHtEHA.2588@.TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> Has Microsoft gone totally mad? I can't even start to think about reasons
> for totally removing Database Diagrams and Query diagrams from the Data
> tools.
> How are we supposed to design a database with 70 tables and 100
> relationships now? Are we supposed to just type the relationships in one
by
> one or using the UI they call 'Table Designer'?
> 2000 to 2005... in 5 years, instead of optimizing one of the best features
> in the client tools you just came up with the idea of totally removing it.
I
> hope this isnt contagious and doesn't spread inside Microsoft or we may
well
> find ourselves with no drag&drop in Longhorn...
>
>|||Obviously you've never tried to design a large database using Visio and
maintain the diagrams in synch with the actual database. Visio is not a DDL
management tool, it's a drawing application with a buggy synchronization
plugin for databases. When using it against large databases you are
constantly at risk of corrupting the whole database since it frequently
messes up with relationships / indexes / etc.
On the other hand, the Database Diagram is a tool to directly manage these
elements against the database. There is no intermediate store for scheme,
there is no synchronization needed, and the diagrams always show exactly
what is on the database and allows you to modify the elements inmediately.
Creating a relationship is a simple drag&drop operation and checking one or
two options if you want it to cascade. Having to create these relationships
manually is *torture*, unless your database has 10 tables and 5
relationships, or you don't even know what a relationship is for.
No serious database management toolset should be without a tool to allow
quick review and maintenance of relationships, as they consitute the basis
for referential integrity on the database.
"John Bell" <jbellnewsposts@.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eJI9dNItEHA.1220@.TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> Hi
> As a diagramming tool, the one provided with SQL Server is pretty poor. I
> would not be sad at such a decission as third party tools and even Visio
> have always done the job alot better. After recent judgements against MS,
> bundling even a cut down Visio with SQL Server would probably be deemed
> anti-competitive, so it seems they are damned whatever they do!
> John
> "Juan Ignacio Gelos" <msnews@.juanignaciogelos.com> wrote in message
> news:%23xLMWnHtEHA.2588@.TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > Has Microsoft gone totally mad? I can't even start to think about
reasons
> > for totally removing Database Diagrams and Query diagrams from the Data
> > tools.
> >
> > How are we supposed to design a database with 70 tables and 100
> > relationships now? Are we supposed to just type the relationships in one
> by
> > one or using the UI they call 'Table Designer'?
> >
> > 2000 to 2005... in 5 years, instead of optimizing one of the best
features
> > in the client tools you just came up with the idea of totally removing
it.
> I
> > hope this isnt contagious and doesn't spread inside Microsoft or we may
> well
> > find ourselves with no drag&drop in Longhorn...
> >
> >
> >
>|||"Juan Ignacio Gelos" <msnews@.juanignaciogelos.com> wrote in message news:<uzxE0mItEHA.3320@.TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl>...
> Obviously you've never tried to design a large database using Visio and
> maintain the diagrams in synch with the actual database. Visio is not a DDL
> management tool, it's a drawing application with a buggy synchronization
> plugin for databases. When using it against large databases you are
> constantly at risk of corrupting the whole database since it frequently
> messes up with relationships / indexes / etc.
>
So your rant has change from diagrams to code maintainance. Try
something like Erwin if you want to do that, but for Diagrams and
visualisation VISIO is fine (IMO).
> On the other hand, the Database Diagram is a tool to directly manage these
> elements against the database. There is no intermediate store for scheme,
> there is no synchronization needed, and the diagrams always show exactly
> what is on the database and allows you to modify the elements inmediately.
> Creating a relationship is a simple drag&drop operation and checking one or
> two options if you want it to cascade. Having to create these relationships
> manually is *torture*, unless your database has 10 tables and 5
> relationships, or you don't even know what a relationship is for.
You are probably not using source code control then? Use of templates
if you don't want to type things in would reduce the amount of work.
The only time I may even think of using a tool to do this would be
when the naming conventions are poorly concieved.
> No serious database management toolset should be without a tool to allow
> quick review and maintenance of relationships, as they consitute the basis
> for referential integrity on the database.
>
That is your opinion.
John
>
> "John Bell" <jbellnewsposts@.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:eJI9dNItEHA.1220@.TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > Hi
> >
> > As a diagramming tool, the one provided with SQL Server is pretty poor. I
> > would not be sad at such a decission as third party tools and even Visio
> > have always done the job alot better. After recent judgements against MS,
> > bundling even a cut down Visio with SQL Server would probably be deemed
> > anti-competitive, so it seems they are damned whatever they do!
> >
> > John
> >
> > "Juan Ignacio Gelos" <msnews@.juanignaciogelos.com> wrote in message
> > news:%23xLMWnHtEHA.2588@.TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > > Has Microsoft gone totally mad? I can't even start to think about
> reasons
> > > for totally removing Database Diagrams and Query diagrams from the Data
> > > tools.
> > >
> > > How are we supposed to design a database with 70 tables and 100
> > > relationships now? Are we supposed to just type the relationships in one
> by
> > > one or using the UI they call 'Table Designer'?
> > >
> > > 2000 to 2005... in 5 years, instead of optimizing one of the best
> features
> > > in the client tools you just came up with the idea of totally removing
> it.
> I
> > > hope this isnt contagious and doesn't spread inside Microsoft or we may
> well
> > > find ourselves with no drag&drop in Longhorn...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >|||Im simply expressing my opinion about a feature that's essential for me and
obviously for a vast majority of developers out there, at least enough for
them to put the feature back into the product.
http://www.aspfaq.com/sql2005/show.asp?id=6
Your answer is too simple minded for me to bother. "If you want diagrams use
erwin". Why would I need to use erwin if the feature has been in the product
in previous versions?
"John Bell" <jbellnewsposts@.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3b81e6a.0410180148.1462e104@.posting.google.com...
> "Juan Ignacio Gelos" <msnews@.juanignaciogelos.com> wrote in message
news:<uzxE0mItEHA.3320@.TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl>...
> > Obviously you've never tried to design a large database using Visio and
> > maintain the diagrams in synch with the actual database. Visio is not a
DDL
> > management tool, it's a drawing application with a buggy synchronization
> > plugin for databases. When using it against large databases you are
> > constantly at risk of corrupting the whole database since it frequently
> > messes up with relationships / indexes / etc.
> >
> So your rant has change from diagrams to code maintainance. Try
> something like Erwin if you want to do that, but for Diagrams and
> visualisation VISIO is fine (IMO).
> > On the other hand, the Database Diagram is a tool to directly manage
these
> > elements against the database. There is no intermediate store for
scheme,
> > there is no synchronization needed, and the diagrams always show exactly
> > what is on the database and allows you to modify the elements
inmediately.
> > Creating a relationship is a simple drag&drop operation and checking one
or
> > two options if you want it to cascade. Having to create these
relationships
> > manually is *torture*, unless your database has 10 tables and 5
> > relationships, or you don't even know what a relationship is for.
> You are probably not using source code control then? Use of templates
> if you don't want to type things in would reduce the amount of work.
> The only time I may even think of using a tool to do this would be
> when the naming conventions are poorly concieved.
> >
> > No serious database management toolset should be without a tool to allow
> > quick review and maintenance of relationships, as they consitute the
basis
> > for referential integrity on the database.
> >
> That is your opinion.
> John
> >
> >
> >
> > "John Bell" <jbellnewsposts@.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:eJI9dNItEHA.1220@.TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > As a diagramming tool, the one provided with SQL Server is pretty
poor. I
> > > would not be sad at such a decission as third party tools and even
Visio
> > > have always done the job alot better. After recent judgements against
MS,
> > > bundling even a cut down Visio with SQL Server would probably be
deemed
> > > anti-competitive, so it seems they are damned whatever they do!
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > "Juan Ignacio Gelos" <msnews@.juanignaciogelos.com> wrote in message
> > > news:%23xLMWnHtEHA.2588@.TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > > > Has Microsoft gone totally mad? I can't even start to think about
> > reasons
> > > > for totally removing Database Diagrams and Query diagrams from the
Data
> > > > tools.
> > > >
> > > > How are we supposed to design a database with 70 tables and 100
> > > > relationships now? Are we supposed to just type the relationships in
one
> > by
> > > > one or using the UI they call 'Table Designer'?
> > > >
> > > > 2000 to 2005... in 5 years, instead of optimizing one of the best
> > features
> > > > in the client tools you just came up with the idea of totally
removing
> > it.
> > I
> > > > hope this isnt contagious and doesn't spread inside Microsoft or we
may
> > well
> > > > find ourselves with no drag&drop in Longhorn...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >|||"Juan Ignacio Gelos" <msnews@.juanignaciogelos.com> wrote in message news:<e9c2kZStEHA.1336@.tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl>...
> Im simply expressing my opinion about a feature that's essential for me and
> obviously for a vast majority of developers out there, at least enough for
> them to put the feature back into the product.
I can't see how suddenly every developer is using the diagramming
tool, but I guess it suits your rant to use such a hypothesis.
> http://www.aspfaq.com/sql2005/show.asp?id=6
Can't see why your original arguements have been satisfied with a new
feature in Whidbey?
> Your answer is too simple minded for me to bother. "If you want diagrams use
> erwin".
Another miss-quote.
> Why would I need to use erwin if the feature has been in the product
> in previous versions?
To do the job it is supposed to do, but never managed to.
John
>
> "John Bell" <jbellnewsposts@.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3b81e6a.0410180148.1462e104@.posting.google.com...
> > "Juan Ignacio Gelos" <msnews@.juanignaciogelos.com> wrote in message
> news:<uzxE0mItEHA.3320@.TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl>...
> > > Obviously you've never tried to design a large database using Visio and
> > > maintain the diagrams in synch with the actual database. Visio is not a
> DDL
> > > management tool, it's a drawing application with a buggy synchronization
> > > plugin for databases. When using it against large databases you are
> > > constantly at risk of corrupting the whole database since it frequently
> > > messes up with relationships / indexes / etc.
> > >
> > So your rant has change from diagrams to code maintainance. Try
> > something like Erwin if you want to do that, but for Diagrams and
> > visualisation VISIO is fine (IMO).
> >
> > > On the other hand, the Database Diagram is a tool to directly manage
> these
> > > elements against the database. There is no intermediate store for
> scheme,
> > > there is no synchronization needed, and the diagrams always show exactly
> > > what is on the database and allows you to modify the elements
> inmediately.
> > > Creating a relationship is a simple drag&drop operation and checking one
> or
> > > two options if you want it to cascade. Having to create these
> relationships
> > > manually is *torture*, unless your database has 10 tables and 5
> > > relationships, or you don't even know what a relationship is for.
> >
> > You are probably not using source code control then? Use of templates
> > if you don't want to type things in would reduce the amount of work.
> > The only time I may even think of using a tool to do this would be
> > when the naming conventions are poorly concieved.
> >
> > >
> > > No serious database management toolset should be without a tool to allow
> > > quick review and maintenance of relationships, as they consitute the
> basis
> > > for referential integrity on the database.
> > >
> > That is your opinion.
> >
> > John
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "John Bell" <jbellnewsposts@.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:eJI9dNItEHA.1220@.TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > > > Hi
> > > >
> > > > As a diagramming tool, the one provided with SQL Server is pretty
> poor. I
> > > > would not be sad at such a decission as third party tools and even
> Visio
> > > > have always done the job alot better. After recent judgements against
> MS,
> > > > bundling even a cut down Visio with SQL Server would probably be
> deemed
> > > > anti-competitive, so it seems they are damned whatever they do!
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > > "Juan Ignacio Gelos" <msnews@.juanignaciogelos.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:%23xLMWnHtEHA.2588@.TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > > > > Has Microsoft gone totally mad? I can't even start to think about
> reasons
> > > > > for totally removing Database Diagrams and Query diagrams from the
> Data
> > > > > tools.
> > > > >
> > > > > How are we supposed to design a database with 70 tables and 100
> > > > > relationships now? Are we supposed to just type the relationships in
> one
> by
> > > > > one or using the UI they call 'Table Designer'?
> > > > >
> > > > > 2000 to 2005... in 5 years, instead of optimizing one of the best
> features
> > > > > in the client tools you just came up with the idea of totally
> removing
> > > it.
> > > I
> > > > > hope this isnt contagious and doesn't spread inside Microsoft or we
> may
> well
> > > > > find ourselves with no drag&drop in Longhorn...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >